Posting of Translated Foreign Language Stories

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Old_Latex_Bloomer
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RE: Posting of Translated Foreign Language Stories

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The German language Chastity Forum: KGForum has a number of of stories that are quite interesting but they only appear in German, and I haven't seen any English language reposts in my searches around the Web. I don't want to be accused of plagarism, or outright theft, by reposting English language versions without getting first getting some advice from the moderators of this board. I very much believe in 'provenance'; the acknowledgement of the original author and the site on which it was first posted. Must the approval of the approval of the author and site administrators be obtained first, or would you allow reposting with provenance? The reposts would not be simply the output of an auto-translator which is virtually unreadable because of foreign grammar and untranslatable words.  I completely retype the story in my own words, but that's still plagarism, and in fact takes much longer than putting my own thoughts to the keyboard. Advice please as I've only just joined this board.

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LockedInALocker
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RE: Posting of Translated Foreign Language Stories

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     Seems pretty clear-cut to me, even though I know little about copyright: I would not feel safe in posting this anywhere at all, whether properly acknowledged or not, whether in the original language, automated translation, or "real" (done by a human) translation, without getting the permission first of the author and/or the site where it is already posted. In fact, I would not even waste my time doing the translation first before having this permission (unless I wanted to do the translation purely for my own private use anyway).
     Hope that helps. Others may have differing opinions; but I might note that it is likely to be the opinions of the author and web site that matter, not the opinions of anyone here.

Regards, Michael.

LockedInALocker2011-06-19 08:07:48

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stephanie_cd
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RE: Posting of Translated Foreign Language Stories

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It's a new question for this forum, or at least one that I don't remember haven't seen asked before!A (very fast) web search on "translation and copyright" brought up http://www.translatorsbase.com/articles/42.aspx which says (in part) "A translation is a derivative work, and only the copyright owner can authorize a translation that will be distributed.""Derivative works are infringing if they are not created with the permission of the copyright holder. Thus, a work of fiction or a best-selling biography cannot be translated into French and distributed without the original author's or copyright holder's permission."There are a lot of websites on the subject, which go into painstaking detail about various international laws and the headaches that go along with those in regards to the internet, ie. a story written in one language/country, translated into a second language in a second country, hosted on a site in a third country and read by someone in a fourth country, all with different copyright laws! My initial reaction is "no, we probably wouldn't allow that because of the potential legal issue that could ensue", which we here at the Bound Forum DO try to avoid! Still, I'm curious as to what the other moderators and site owners think of the subject, especially as the site owners have the final say! stephanie_cd

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Ranai Pahav
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RE: Posting of Translated Foreign Language Stories

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It's simple: Write to the author and ask.

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stephanie_cd
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RE: Posting of Translated Foreign Language Stories

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[quote="Ranai" Pahav]It's simple: Write to the author and ask.[/quote]In a perfect world, this would be simple and effective, and the asker would get a simple "yes" or "no" in a short time.  In actuality, the problem with the internet (and with the internet kink community) is the transient nature of the whole thing. People change e-mail addresses, people's interests change, people's favorite websites change, and people simply change. I know that we've had more than a few authors, members, and even moderators just suddenly vanish due to changes in their "real lives". On top of that, from previous discussions, I know that Gromet and GU need something a lot more concrete than Person A saying "well, I talked to Person B and they said it's okay" for things to be posted here, so that would complicate things even further. 

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RE: Posting of Translated Foreign Language Stories

Unread post by Ranai Pahav »

I wrote too short, thus ambivalent. I didn't mean you, Stephanie. No worries. I was addressing the OP.Old Latex Bloomer, if you'd like to translate someone's fiction, your first step is to write to the author. (Or if it were published commercially, the publisher.)Thinking about where you might possibly post a story is a second step after obtaining the author's permission. You can discuss this question with the author too. Maybe the author has ideas for you. Before that, anything regarding this particular forum or any other possible venue is purely hypothetical.

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RE: Posting of Translated Foreign Language Stories

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[quote="Ranai" Pahav]I wrote too short, thus ambivalent.[/quote]That's just another common problem with the whole internet sometimes!     But I sort of  guessed you were addressing the OP! Your advice (as always!) is excellent in your follow-up post, and you're absolutely right on the "Before that, anything ... is purely hypothetical." But writing to the author is certainly a good first step! 

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RE: Posting of Translated Foreign Language Stories

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Enough already of the legalese, I'm not questioning the copy-rightedness. I've registered at KGForum but, unlike this board, which occurs in a few minutes, for the reply Email. It appears that at KGForum you don't get processed anytime in the next epoch or millenia, unless you cross the administrators palm with silver.No confirmation of registration Email= No Login= No ability to send Email, nor address to send to= No contact with author. I've surfed across many sites and seen lots of stories reposted with whoever posted it calling it their own, and the stories don't get pulled. I guess if I read between the lines, then I should;Create a new Persona, with new Email adress routed via a third mail server, andRetitle the Story, use 'Find and replace all' to put new names and places, andPost, then Sit back and receive the undeserved kudos.  

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LockedInALocker
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RE: Posting of Translated Foreign Language Stories

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[quote="Old_Latex_Bloomer"]Enough already of the legalese, I'm not questioning the copy-rightedness.[/quote]
     In that case, I'm not quite sure what you were asking about. It sounded to me *exactly* like you wanted others' opinions on this.

[quote="Old_Latex_Bloomer"]I've registered at KGForum but, unlike this board, which occurs in a few minutes, for the reply Email. It appears that at KGForum you don't get processed anytime in the next epoch or millenia, unless you cross the administrators palm with silver.No confirmation of registration Email= No Login= No ability to send Email, nor address to send to= No contact with author.[/quote]
     Sure, some people are lousy at communication, or perhaps just terminally disorganized and not getting around to replying (even if they intend to). Maybe in some cases they don't even want to communicate with anyone else. Who knows? But if it came to a real dispute, I doubt you could use this as an argument for posting material without permission.

[quote="Old_Latex_Bloomer"]I've surfed across many sites and seen lots of stories reposted with whoever posted it calling it their own, and the stories don't get pulled.[/quote]
     I don't quite understand how this is relevant to your query. Claiming authorship of something wrongly goes a step well and truly beyond merely reposting without permission.
     I'm not sure if I've seen a clear case of authorship being claimed wrongly. I've seen stories or articles reposted, but I think usually the original author is credited. Without any connection with the reposter, who knows whether they have permission or not?
     But well over a decade ago I wrote (in my vanilla life) a book review that somehow caught on and got reposted many, many times, and even discussed on forums. It began on Amazon, and I also posted it on a site of my own - so it got around a bit, and I think it must have somehow struck a chord with people which caused it to get quoted many times and discussed on forums. I received dozens of e-mails about it over the years from people who'd read that review and wanted to talk about it with me.
     None of these reposters had my permission, but they credited me by name and didn't edit the content; so I was okay with that, even though technically they were breaking the accepted rules, breaching my permission, and (possibly) even technically breaking copyright law. Some people in the discussions made rather disparaging remarks about the point of view I expressed; but, while I didn't exactly enjoy reading that, I recognized that of course they have the right to have any opinion at all about what I wrote, and to express it.
     But I once had the weird and rather unsettling experience of coming across a copy of this review posted somewhere with my name removed, and the reposter's name not exactly substituted, but the review quoted in a context that seemed to suggest they were claiming authorship of it - largely by blending the text of the review with their own text within the post, instead of clearly delineating the beginning and end of the quotation, so making it look as if they had written my text. And I didn't like that: it's not nice to come upon someone else quoting your ideas wholesale and crediting themselves with those ideas.
     I tried to tell myself that objecting to this was just ego, and I debated whether I should just let it go - what did it really matter? - but I couldn't quite immediately dismiss my resentment, and I joined the forum where it was posted, simply with the intention of publicly refuting the implied false authorship (it was a forum that only members could post to, although the public could read it). I didn't in the end, though, and I probably won't now, a few years later; and I think my membership of that forum eventually expired.
     So if lots of stories get reposted and the reposters claim authorship, that doesn't make it right. And if they get away with it, that doesn't make any difference to it.
     However, I assume that, in posting the translated stories, you intend to keep the original author credits, so maybe I'm not quite sure why you raised the idea of stories being quoted and the authorship re-attributed. But I'm pretty sure that, even with the original author credited, you do still need their permission before reposting the material (including in translation).

[quote="Old_Latex_Bloomer"]I guess if I read between the lines, then I should;
Create a new Persona, with new Email adress routed via a third mail server, and
Retitle the Story, use 'Find and replace all' to put new names and places, and
Post, then Sit back and receive the undeserved kudos.[/quote]
     I *think* I assume this is a joke. But seriously, no, I would not do this if I wanted to avoid trouble - no matter how many others may have done it and got away with it. If you did this with something I had written, and I found it, you would be getting an e-mail from me asking you to remove it as soon as possible.

Regards, Michael.

LockedInALocker2011-06-20 10:38:49

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stephanie_cd
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RE: Posting of Translated Foreign Language Stories

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[quote="Old_Latex_Bloomer"]Enough already of the legalese, I'm not questioning the copy-rightedness[/quote]But as Michael pointed out, you DID ask about re-posting those stories here! [quote="Old_Latex_Bloomer"]I've registered at KGForum but, unlike this board, which occurs in a few minutes, for the reply Email. It appears that at KGForum you don't get processed anytime in the next epoch or millenia, unless you cross the administrators palm with silver.No confirmation of registration Email= No Login= No ability to send Email, nor address to send to= No contact with author.[/quote]That's obviously decidedly inconvenient, especially in this case. I Googled and then went to KGForum, and discovered that you CAN use their Java Chat applet without a password -- you might try asking there if any of the chat users know of a way to shake a password loose from the admins? (Of course, as a non-German speaker, I was logged in just long enough to go "okay, it works!" and after that I was in over my head!  )Also, unlike this forum, it seems as though unregistered members can access member's profiles -- some of those actually DO have e-mail addresses listed! So instead of sending a "PM" or internal forum message, you might try that route.  [quote="Old_Latex_Bloomer"]I've surfed across many sites and seen lots of stories reposted with whoever posted it calling it their own, and the stories don't get pulled.[/quote]I've surfed across many forums and seen a lot of them filled with spam -- to the point where they're useless -- because the site admin and moderators just don't give a damn, or are too worried about trying to make money. Around here, we do try to keep things in line, and as it seems to have comesup in half the recent threads about copyrighted photos, the Bound Forum and at least one of the affiliated sites HAVE BEEN shut down in the past thanks to overzealous copyright attorneys, AND we've been warned at least one other time that I know of. Obviously, we'd kind of like to keep that from happening again!(And of course, see also "two wrongs don't make a right," "if all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you too?" and so forth.  ) [quote="Old_Latex_Bloomer"]I guess if I read between the lines, then I should;Create a new Persona, with new Email adress routed via a third mail server, andRetitle the Story, use 'Find and replace all' to put new names and places, andPost, then Sit back and receive the undeserved kudos.[/quote]If you're actually going to go to the effort of translating all those stories into English, why stop there? Instead of merely re-posting them somewhere -- preferably on another site than this one -- why not find yourself a publishing house that dabbles in kinky erotica, hope that they don't speak or read German, become a published plagiarist author, and get paid in real money unless (or until) you get caught!

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RE: Posting of Translated Foreign Language Stories

Unread post by Old_Latex_Bloomer »

I'm about to try pasting the output of my word processor below this line.So if its blank, or an unreadable mess, that's why, here goes  LockedInALocker:  Of course I was joking that I'd create a new persona and steal others work. I was simply trying to show how easy it has become.

 

[Just because its rife doesn't mean it's right.]



 Aside;

A regular segment on the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) Pop music quiz "Spicks & Specks" shows just how hard it is to recognise the lyrics of Hit songs after they have been translated into a foreign language and back again. So the chances of being caught by anyone other than a fluent speaker of both languages stumbling upon this board are low.

Back to topic.



 stephanie_cd: Thank you  for the lateral-thinking on ways to side-step the inability to contact the KG Forum. The Email addresses of  the Authors Profiles I was interested in were blocked and I wrongly assumed all were until you joined their forum. Silly assumption O_L_B. I've been to their site many times trolling through Public stories, but never once have been tempted to click on Live Chat, precisely because of the language barrier.



 Let's say I get KG Forums Administrators/Moderators/Authors approval/s, one, some, or all, to repost, then;

Should I conduct the correspondence, with the approvals sent to me, and forwarded to the relevant Administrators/Moderator at Bound Forum? (I could just fake them all you know), or

Such authorisations sent direct to Bound Forum?, or

To me, with CC's to Bound Forum?, and

To who, you; stephanie_cd?



 I wasn't joking when I said one probably had to hand over spondulicks to gain admission; it's clearly described in a recent post in their General Board: Technical problems room (I think that's the right location??) , so I'm dubious if I'll gain entry. But I'll wait a while longer for reply, and in the meantime, try the alternate you've suggested.



 To summarise so far;

In this thread is a mixture of several issues:

1. Reposting without Permission, but with the original Authors copyright acknowledged, inclusive of Links back to the original posting site. Not intended to harm, nor exploit, merely intended only to increase the availability of the story to English speakers who can't read the Foreign language.



 2.  Where does Copyright Infringement end, and Plagiarism begin.



 Addressing  point 1:

The current position appears to be;

No Reposting without Permission, no buts, ifs, or maybes.



 Addressing point 2:

A side issue, not relevant, as point 1 is the point of this Thread, but interesting none the less.

As far as I know there isn't an offence called Plagiarism while there are a host of Copyright Laws.

Plagiarism being the appropriation of the another's Ideas rather than Copyright; their words.



 [Plagiarise> Modify>Hybridise>Publish.]



 Aside;

The movie "Jewel of the Nile" looked and felt just like "Indiana Jones and the....(insert any episode name here)" but without the budget for the stunts and FX. The producers of "Jewel of..." didn't get done over by rampaging packs of attack lawyers.

Or

Why didn't  'evil-dolly' the author of the novella Eudeamon sue 'Karen_AS'  author of the short story PUBLIC SLUT 551544 LEVEL FIVE, or vice versa, depending on who published first, (unless both personas are one, and of, the same person).

Back to Topic



 I'm no definitely no expert on Copyright either, the only contact I've ever had with it was a lecture as part of a CTV (Community Television) Producers training course, and its' focus was on not infringing Trade Marks, making sure you obtained Model releases, filling out APRA (Australian Performing rights Association) forms, etc.



 

 Caution, Enthusiasm Index falling with every keystroke.

Danger, Enthusiasm Index in Negative Zone.



 So I really should spend my time writing something original, what does a Web search on 'red latex bondage cape' yield?.

Your search produced 297 matches, displaying page 1 of 16 pages.

Bugger, someone else has already gone there.

Let's try 'lockable sissy AB latex baby-doll maids uniform punishment'.

Your search produced 0 matches, try widening your search terms.

Great, nobodies been there, I'll write about that, not appropriate for your forum, but at least I won't be infringing anyone elses' copyright or plagiarising their idea/s.



 

 Thank you once again for your advice. It is probable time to give this thread  a decent burial.

As you can see from my ranking I'm a raw-newbie who's never registered/posted/thread started before, on this, or any other Forum.

So here is another dumb question, last one;

When a Thread reaches a conclusion (question/s answered, veers wildly off-topic, peters out),

Do I, as the originator close it, or, a moderator, or, either, close the Thread, or, do they merely become moribund, but still able to be added to?

(Sorry about all those the run-on sentences in this post)



 [There is no Black or White, just infinite shades of Grey.]



 That wasn't a total disaster, but what is the standard font/size for posts here?

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stephanie_cd
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RE: Posting of Translated Foreign Language Stories

Unread post by stephanie_cd »

[quote="Old_Latex_Bloomer"] That wasn't a total disaster, but what is the standard font/size for posts here?[/quote]It's a san serif font like Helvetica, Futura, or Arial, and I'm merely guessing that the font size is around 10 or so. [quote=Old_Latex_Bloomer]When a Thread reaches a conclusion (question/s answered, veers wildly off-topic, peters out),Do I, as the originator close it, or, a moderator, or, either, close the Thread, or, do they merely become moribund, but still able to be added to?[/quote]Super short answer: yes.  Shorter answer: all of the above.Long answer: on some forums, the originator may say "okay, thanks! Th-th-th-that's all, folks!" and other users may consider it closed. On others, people will just keep adding to them if they think it's still topical. Here at the Bound Forum, most message threads stay active unless a moderator has to step in and close it for some rare reason, or until they're automatically closed after a year or two by the forum software.

[quote="Old_Latex_Bloomer"]A regular segment on the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) Pop music quiz "Spicks & Specks" shows just how hard it is to recognise the lyrics of Hit songs after they have been translated into a foreign language and back again. So the chances of being caught by anyone other than a fluent speaker of both languages stumbling upon this board are low.[/quote]I can certainly believe that, and you're probably right.

[quote="Old_Latex_Bloomer"]Let's say I get KG Forums Administrators/Moderators/Authors approval/s, one, some, or all, to repost, then;

Should I conduct the correspondence, with the approvals sent to me, and forwarded to the relevant Administrators/Moderator at Bound Forum? (I could just fake them all you know), or

Such authorisations sent direct to Bound Forum?, or

To me, with CC's to Bound Forum?, and

To who, you; stephanie_cd?[/quote]The normal way stories get posted here is by authors placing them in the "Author's Corner" subforum. From there, as the Story Posting "Rules" point out, they're generally considered for republication on two affiliated sites unless the author does not want them re-posted there.Whenever there's a third party involved, the site admin -- GaggedUtopia -- needs a copy of any related correspondence, e-mails, snail mail, etc. I've heard rumors of model release forms and such, but that's not really my field of expertise, and it's HIS website. Since you brought up faking such documentation (as if that's never happened before?) he'll also probably have to spend even more of his time verifying said information, e-mailing the authors and other site owners independently, and he may very well conclude that posting your translated stories just isn't worth the effort involved and just delete them instead.  This is getting ridiculously long -- more in Part II below!

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RE: Posting of Translated Foreign Language Stories

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[quote=Old_Latex_Bloomer]The current position appears to be;No Reposting without Permission, no buts, ifs, or maybes.[/quote]Right!  [quote=Old_Latex_Bloomer]Addressing point 2:A side issue, not relevant, as point 1 is the point of this Thread, but interesting none the less.As far as I know there isn't an offence called Plagiarism while there are a host of Copyright Laws.[/quote]I believe that plagiarism is generally the academic term while copyright is the legal term used by the courts. Here's a link to plagiarism.org for more information.Both are convoluted messes which vary by country and institution. [quote=Old_Latex_Bloomer]Plagiarism being the appropriation of the another's Ideas rather than Copyright; their words. [Plagiarise> Modify>Hybridise>Publish.] Aside;The movie "Jewel of the Nile" looked and felt just like "Indiana Jones and the....(insert any episode name here)" but without the budget for the stunts and FX. The producers of "Jewel of..." didn't get done over by rampaging packs of attack lawyers.OrWhy didn't  'evil-dolly' the author of the novella Eudeamon sue 'Karen_AS'  author of the short story PUBLIC SLUT 551544 LEVEL FIVE, or vice versa, depending on who published first, (unless both personas are one, and of, the same person).[/quote]I'm not sure, but I know there were some issues involving a couple of latex stories that heavily borrowed slash stole some actual chunks of text, and there's a discussion somewhere on this forum about them. I'm not sure if these two are the stories in question or not. You can compare Indiana Jones and.... to Jewel of the Nile all you like, but apparently there were enough differences that the lawyers in Hollywood chose not to fight it out, and they do that for a living! As far as your other examples below that one, we can extrapolate the whole idea of plagiarism and copyright out until it becomes simply comedic, since it's been said that there's only Seven Stories in the World anyhow! "How about a story about two people and some kinky bondage? Whoops. It's been done. Three people? Been done. Four or five or...harumph. Been done too. Hey -- ONE person! SELF-bondage! Oh, drat."  stephanie_cd2011-06-21 15:59:11

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