Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

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Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby Omnisurf » Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:12 am

Hi all,

I’m looking to stay restrained on a long-term basis for around a week or so as part of a challenge.

I’m looking for any suggestions of wrist restraints which have or can have a reasonable length of chain separating between them so most normal tasks are possible.

Furthermore, they’ll need to be reasonably comfortable, so bigger is better rather than handcuff style which I find can cut into the skin.

Finally, they will need to be high security, as I have the unfortunate ability of a lock pick so I can escape out of most standard restraints! To give you an idea, these are the leg irons I use: http://www.thehandcuffshop.com/index.cf ... roduct=154 - something similar in wrist form would be good!

Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks!
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby RAE123 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:21 pm

A good leather wrist cuff, with combo locks and a length of chain should be all you need.
Iron can dig into your skin, leather works on me real good.
Buy new combo locks, do not look at the numbers, and put the numbers in a letter
mailed to yourself or to a friend who will ail them back in a given time. :idea:
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby Jimdini » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:14 pm

Have a look at cuffsland Chinese selection https://cuffsland.de/english/
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby Cd Tammy » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:13 am

The waist chains with handcuffs that prison inmates are transferred wearing. The ones used here have a large round lock instead of the small handcuff key lock.
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby ruru67 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:14 am

I don't think any of the Chinese cuffs at cuffsland.de match the poster's request:
I’m looking for any suggestions of wrist restraints which have or can have a reasonable length of chain separating between them so most normal tasks are possible.
Furthermore, they’ll need to be reasonably comfortable, so bigger is better rather than handcuff style which I find can cut into the skin.

For longer term bondage you really want wider cuffs, preferably with rounded edges. There are some options from AliExpress & friends (search for "steel cuffs"); I have quite a nice set of padlockable cuffs (note: throw away any padlocks that come with Chinese gear and replace them with decent ones; if you want security against picking, don't get integrated locks) that I got some time ago, but they're nickel plated metal, not stainless steel.

You really want stainless (or at least not nickel) because nickel allergies are a thing, and you can get sensitised to nickel if you're in contact with it for an extended period.

(Most stainless steels have nickel in them, but don't release "free" nickel and therefore don't generally trigger allergies.)
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby Stahlketten » Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:52 am

Can you post a link to what you believe are good cuffs of the type you are describing?

For the original poster, modern high security handcuffs are fairly hard to pick in my opinion though I think they are too narrow to be comfortable. Something like a S&W model 94 would be pretty resistant and S&W model 104 would also be just a little less difficult. If you need a longer chain, you could get a set of the belly chains with high security handcuffs and cut the extra chains off if they get in the way or you could replace the short chain on a normal set of handcuffs with a longer chain.
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby ruru67 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:15 am

Stahlketten wrote:Can you post a link to what you believe are good cuffs of the type you are describing?


I'm thinking something something like this.

These look a lot like the plated cuffs I have, but note that I got mine from eBay about a decade ago, so that may just be coincidence. If I was buying them I'd ask first, making it clear that they'd be refunding me of they weren't what they said they were. (Ali is pretty good about that sort of stuff.) I'm thinking about doing just that, because apart from the nickel thing, I really like these cuffs.

A bunch of vendors are peddling cuffs like thes, with integrated locks. They look nice. The locks are the same type of locking insert as many small chastity devices (BURG-WÄCHTER ME inserts, or their Chinese knock-offs). With small cylinders and only three pins, these aren't particularly secure.

Other more expensive options:
  • Heavy cuffs, integrated locks (but I've seen these locks used to secure vending machines, so I'm guessing they're a bit better than useless...)
  • Heavy padlockable cuffs, not sure if the padlock closure risks pinching though.

All of these popped up fairly quickly on a search for "steel wrist cuffs" on AliExpress.

For the original poster, modern high security handcuffs are fairly hard to pick in my opinion though I think they are too narrow to be comfortable.

I wouldn't use a "police style" swing through cuff for any term bondage. They're just wrist injuries waiting to happen.
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby ruru67 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:54 pm

To add to the note about the first cuffs I suggested, I found a seller that had those cuffs both in "stainless steel", and what they called "zinc alloy", the latter slightly cheaper. So I've just ordered new ones (in SS, both wrist & ankle) to replace the plated ones. I'll test for nickel when they arrive.
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby LockedInALocker » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:54 pm

     A couple of those sites in links above say they can't ship leg irons outside of the E.U., and I am just wondering why? Is it some E.U. law, or just company policy? - and what would the reason be?

Michael.
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby Stahlketten » Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:41 pm

Thanks for the links Ruru67.
I actually have some of the cuffs you ordered though I did not like how they took only small luggage sized padlocks.
I clamped mine to make sure they were aligned as tight as possible and used a drill press to enlarge the holes to take a 1 inch or 30 mm lock. There is still plenty of metal left but those locks would need some significant tools to break open unlike the little luggage locks. In drilling mine, the material looked like stainless steel as advertised though it did not seem particularly hard. I used a drill press because I didn't want to take off any more metal than I needed to.
They are comfortable and don't leave marks, but don't have the heavy and secure feeling of a lot of metal and my Jailer isn't the kind to want to spend a lot of time getting things to set up without twisted chains and other annoyances.
We used polished stainless steel chain with our sets.

The cuffs with the integrated BURG-WÄCHTER locks are actually pretty well made but all the keys look to be the same.
I bought a few sets from eBay and only have one set with a key that is different. I need to find more locks of this type.
Three pins is good enough security for our prisoners. The padlocks we use typically only have 4 pins and some are just warded locks.

The cuffs with the cross shaped key are poor quality. I have a set. The lock will open with the vibration if you jut tap on the side a bit. I also know of another set that was being sold on eBay and the seller told me that the locks used different keys on each side which is pretty bad.

The cuffs that use a padlock to close look good but note that all that holds them together is a quick link.

LockedInALocker,
I believe this is a E.U. law that came about because some prisoner in Africa wrote about how he was kept in leg irons all the time and the inscription "British Made" on them was a constant reminder of his status. If you search for Hiatt Leg Irons, you will find that the older ones have a twisted link chain while the new ones are usually square link and not very consistent. That is because the cuffs are manufactured in England and exported to the USA where the chains are welded on. They are then marked as "Made in USA" though I have not personally seen the inscriptions. The same can be observed with Hiatt handcuffs. The chain links on the newer cuffs are not as nicely matched as the older ones.
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby tiemeupalso » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:57 pm

I have tried buying steel cuffs over the net and they are all too small.i have one set I cant send back because they were "custom made".
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby ruru67 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:52 pm

Stahlketten wrote:I actually have some of the cuffs you ordered though I did not like how they took only small luggage sized padlocks.

I use Lockwood 25mm 4-pin padlocks with mine; I find that size just seems about right. The a 30mm padlock goes into the hole, but not past the bend in the shackle, so only a small amount of reaming it out would be required. The ankle cuffs have bigger holes so will take a 30mm padlock. Most Chinese manufacturers use 304 stainless, which is generally fairly easy to work (as SS goes).

The cuffs with the integrated BURG-WÄCHTER locks are actually pretty well made but all the keys look to be the same.

You can buy the inserts separately. Contact the seller and see if you can get them keyed differently.

The cuffs that use a padlock to close look good but note that all that holds them together is a quick link.

I would use a chain between the closing padlocks, or even a single padlock through both sides. If you want them permanently joined separately from the closing padlocks, you could apply Loctite 271 (or equivalent) to the quicklink to make sure it stays closed.
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby ruru67 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:39 am

Of course if you want heavy, there's always these...

I expect that you could get the chain length adjusted. Just ask. To give an idea of what some of these Chinese manufacturers will do, I present this - that's a locking stainless steel collar, 8cm high, 2cm thick, I'd estimate around 5.5 kg. (No, I didn't buy it, but it was the subject of a conversation; I expect they did that for someone else, but never put it up in their store.)
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby noescape » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:19 pm

A little different that what you are looking for, but this is an adventure I did a number of years ago using casting material.
It was extremely comfortable, and could have been worn much, much longer if not for other time commitments.


http://www.boundforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=87260
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby Stahlketten » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:37 pm

ruru67 wrote:I use Lockwood 25mm 4-pin padlocks with mine; I find that size just seems about right. The a 30mm padlock goes into the hole, but not past the bend in the shackle, so only a small amount of reaming it out would be required. The ankle cuffs have bigger holes so will take a 30mm padlock. Most Chinese manufacturers use 304 stainless, which is generally fairly easy to work (as SS goes).


We actually have several different sets of "25 mm" or "30 mm" locks and they don't all need the same size hole to go through.
I found that the cuffs didn't close completely if a lock was put through the center of the original hole which is why I clamped them closed before I drilled. That way, the holes are aligned with the cuffs closed as tight as possible.

I actually do have some "Red" Loc-Tite but just don't like the aesthetics of a quick link.

Never tried to order from AliExpress before. Seems like a Chinese version of eBay. Anything to watch out for?
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby ruru67 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:48 am

Stahlketten wrote:We actually have several different sets of "25 mm" or "30 mm" locks and they don't all need the same size hole to go through.

Yeah, I've got 25mm locks from Abus & Lockwood; the Abus ones are lighter and only 3-pin, but reasonably well made. The 4-pin Lockwood ones are my go-tos for a lot of things though. Both have 4mm shackles; the Abus ones seem fractionally thinner than the Lockwoods.

I recently picked up some 20mm Yale locks, and I like those a lot for where smaller padlocks are appropriate - they're 4-pin and well made. I have some 20mm Master locks, and ... well, let's say I'm less impressed. (They're only 3-pin, and the construction isn't as good, although it's a lot better than any cheap Chinese padlock I've supplied with any gear.) Both of these have 3mm shackles.

The 30mm 4-pin Abus locks have 5mm shackles. They also have heel & toe locking, so are much stronger than any of the single-locking 25mm or less padlocks.

I'm fussy about padlocks. I've had cheap Chinese ones (plural) fail shut on me (the cylinders split lengthwise along the top of the keyway, because there just wasn't enough metal in it), fortunately not while anyone was locked by them, and they're too easy to pick. I've had some where there were no pins at all in the lock - you just needed to be able to turn the cylinder to open it.

I actually do have some "Red" Loc-Tite but just don't like the aesthetics of a quick link.

I know what you mean. But if you don't have a welding kit, the options for joining chain are pretty limited. It's either take what the vendor gave you or use padlocks or quick-links. Medium weight chain links can be cut on one side then twisted open and closed, and will still be strong enough to restrain someone - I've made wrist-to-ankle chain sets like that. (I usually solder the joint - it doesn't make it noticeably stronger, but it makes the joint less obvious.)

Don't be afraid to ask a vendor if they'll do a custom welded chain. It often feels like the stuff is mass produced, but it's often not. You can be surprised what customisations they can do for you, and it's usually cheap or even free.

Never tried to order from AliExpress before. Seems like a Chinese version of eBay. Anything to watch out for?

That's basically what they are. I've ordered a lot of stuff through AliExpress, from bondage gear up to whole computers, about 150 or so orders; if I want something, I'll usually go there before eBay. Comparing Ali with eBay:

  • Ali's vendors are pretty much all Chinese, so the range is stuff made in China. You see a lot of the same items on eBay, but there are things on eBay you won't see on Ali. (The reverse is true to a degree.)
  • I generally find Ali cheaper for a given item.
  • I've found shipping more consistent and generally much cheaper. I think this is more a "China vs the rest of the world" thing than an "Ali vs eBay" thing - if you find the same vendor on both platforms, they usually have similar shipping costs. There is a bunch of reasons China does export so well, and logistics is a big part of that.
  • Ali has its own logistics service. I pretty much always select "AliExpress Standard Shipping", and often pass on vendors that don't offer that - it usually costs a bit more, but is consistently faster (to NZ) than China Post or other arrangements. Some vendors offer it as their default free shipping option.
  • Ali's rating system incentivises good behaviour from its vendors. They really want that fifth star, and will do a lot to get it. I've had vendors just ship replacement products when there have been problems, even if they're weren't really obligated to so.
  • Inevitably there are problems - out of the 150 or so items I've bought through Ali, I've had a handful of problems - most have been resolved either directly by the vendor, or through Ali's disputes process. I think I've only once been dissatisfied with the process. The magic words, "do I need to raise a dispute?", often get problems solved quickly. I've found getting things fixed/refunded with eBay much harder and slower. Note that I use eBay a lot less, so my impressions may not be based on current behaviour.
  • A lot of what's on Ali is "cheap Chinese crap". I've had a lot of stuff that hasn't been used very much or didn't last long, or just wasn't very good. You get what you pay for, and much of what's on Ali is low-end. When I have bought more expensive items, they've generally been good value. The cheap stuff ... I figure that a few failures are part of the price of access to cheap gear.
  • You do need to read the descriptions and look at the photos with a critical eye. The word salad in the item header is often meaningless, especially around materials; there's an "item specifics " listing in every listing that I believe is what the vendor actually commits to, so if it says "stainless steel" in the header, but not in the specifics, move along... Likewise, that's where you find that "leather" is actually PU or worse. (There's pretty much no leather BDSM gear available from Ali, although I have bought some quite nice leather items in the past from Chinese vendors running their own sites.)
  • As noted, a lot of vendors will customise if you ask. Some are just resellers, but a lot are actual factories or have the sorts of relationships with factories that allow for customising.

There's also DHGate. I haven't had as good experiences with them than with Ali (but I have bought very little from them). It used to be that I'd find things on DHGate that weren't on Ali, but that hasn't been true for a long time and I generally just stick to Ali, and head to eBay if I can't find what I want.
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby Stahlketten » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:35 pm

Ruru67,
Thanks for the detailed information.
I have actually had fairly decent luck ordering through eBay.
Recently I found a vendor there for a set of locks of the BURG-WÄCHTER type at a decent price on eBay.
I also noticed that I actually have a set of each type of restraints now with a unique key, but one set seems to not work as smoothly as the others even though they are all the same manufacturer - Black Emperor.

You tend to be even more picky than I am about lock manufacturers. I am sure I don't own anything by Abus and most of the locks I have are fairly inexpensive and made in China. I do know what you mean about the cylinder splits but so far that has happened a couple times only on the luggage sized locks which I do not trust anyway and surprisingly on a very large steel case lock. I have multiple sets of locks because I try to keep a different set with every set of jewelry that requires locks.
So far, we have never had a lock failure in actual use unless you count them not being closed completely.

Regarding permanently joining chain, if appearance is of no concern, then you can use a cold-shut which is pretty easy.
If appearance IS a concern, then there are split links that are much like key rings but much thicker steel. When pounded closed, they appearance is a little better than a quick link and there are also versions that have an interlocking rivet section to close them.
Yet another idea is to use an anchor shackle but instead of closing it with a bolt, use a bar through both holes and peen the ends so they can't be removed. They also come in swivel styles if you need to add a swivel to a set of cuffs.
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby ruru67 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:00 am

Heh, yeah, I'm picky. For me, once I've picked or broken a piece of hear, it seems less "real" - like I could always pick or break my way out. So I really want locks that aren't going to be easy to pick or force.

Funny thing is, if' I'm bound with, say, a strap that's riveted shut, so I'll need to cut or break it to get out, then I'll feel like I could cut it any time, and it's not "real". But if I used the same strap with a padlock fastening, it'll "feel" like it's on until the key becomes available (assuming it will become available).

BTW: I ordered a couple of sets of the "stainless steel" padlockable cuffs I mentioned way upthread. Stainless? Try chrome plated brass. I'm not hugely surprised - they were cheap, and in the pics they looked suspiciously like they were cast and plated, but still, I don't like it when vendors lie.
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby Stahlketten » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:31 pm

I know what you mean about having escaped a set of restraints before. The problem though is that the typical modern handcuffs all tend to be fairly easy to pick. We still use them quite a lot despite how simple the locks are. There are ways to make things more challenging. As for breaking toys, I am in full agreement. That is why I don't really use the luggage sized locks for anything that requires strength.
My lock picking skills are not nearly as good as yours, so a simple warded lock is fairly good security and I don't believe I have ever been able to pick a pin tumbler lock. The simple set of Master laminated padlocks has worked well for well over a decade.

With your padlockable cuffs, perhaps the vendor really didn't know. How did you find out that they were really just plated brass?
I am fairly certain that the cuffs I got were actually stainless because every set required enlarging holes to allow the use of larger padlocks. The material that came off looked silvery but of course was very soft. I also ran a round file through the holes afterward and didn't detect anything odd. I will check them again just to be sure.
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Re: Secure long-term metal wrist restraints?

Unread postby ruru67 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:06 am

Stahlketten wrote:I know what you mean about having escaped a set of restraints before. The problem though is that the typical modern handcuffs all tend to be fairly easy to pick. We still use them quite a lot despite how simple the locks are.

I'm not a fan of handcuffs for that and safety reasons, but security is only an issue if you have access to the tools, paper clips et c.

With your padlockable cuffs, perhaps the vendor really didn't know. How did you find out that they were really just plated brass?

Well, I put it in the X-5000 metal analyzer and ... uh, actually I just scratched the surface:

Screenshot_2018-10-26 ruru67's Pics FetLife.jpg
Screenshot_2018-10-26 ruru67's Pics FetLife.jpg (16.29 KiB) Viewed 1600 times

I sent that pic to the seller and asked them point blank what it was really made of. The replied right back with, "it is zinc alloy chromium plating." Well, the metal clearly has copper in it, so it's basically brass - more likely "pot metal", i.e you toss the offcuts of any non-ferrous metals into a crucible for melting and casting.

I thought they looked cast and plated even in the pics, and they were cheap, so I wasn't really surprised. Stainless is generally more expensive, and usually stainless cuffs are cut and shaped from bar stock rather than cast. But unlike the first set I got from eBay about a decade ago, they were chrome plated, not nickel plated. I guess I'm still in the market for a decent set of SS cuffs though.

(I use a nickel test kit to check that - there's two chemicals mixed together and rubbed onto the metal with a cotton bud; if it's nickel, a pink stain forms on the cotton. I'm pretty adamant that if anyone sells me nickel as something else I'm going to demand a refund.)
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